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#60508 - 10/15/09 01:09 PM Re: Soccer as a Vehicle for Learning Life Lessons [Re: aclifton]
RAH47 Offline
member

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 101
Loc: Mo.
Andrew,
Do I sense a bit of arrogance towards rec coaches?

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#60516 - 10/15/09 02:04 PM Re: Soccer as a Vehicle for Learning Life Lessons [Re: RAH47]
paul12 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/10/09
Posts: 2810
Loc: Northern Virginia
Andrew: "My opinion isn't elitist."

Of course it is. You're saying you believe select coaches are better than rec coaches. That may be true or not true, but it sure sounds elitist to me.

Not all elitism is bad. Last night I got to see players who I believe are better than me (don't think I'd find anyone who would disagree with me on that). I paid a lot of money to see them, because I'd only pay that amount to see elite players.

In fact, I could say that each of those players is genetically gifted. There weren't any who were born crippled, or born blind, or born without at least an above average degree of general athleticism. They were on that field because of their genetical advantages. Maybe not entirely, but surely in part.

And being someone who supports genetic discrimination, I'm glad our national team doesn't have blind cripples - though a few times last night I wasn't 100 percent sure we don't.

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#60518 - 10/15/09 02:07 PM Re: Soccer as a Vehicle for Learning Life Lessons [Re: aclifton]
socrnewbie Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 297
Loc: on the edge
Originally Posted By: aclifton
Fred,

My opinion isn't elitist. smile

To say that rec coaches (most of which have limited/no soccer background) are as good as club coaches (most of which have extensive soccer background) isn't rational.

Rec coaches (in general) aren't capable of teaching the game as well as club coaches.



Edit: replace "club" with "paid"

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#60534 - 10/15/09 04:05 PM Re: Soccer as a Vehicle for Learning Life Lessons [Re: aclifton]
RAH47 Offline
member

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 101
Loc: Mo.
Andrew,
What is your definition of having extensive soccer background?

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#60536 - 10/15/09 04:13 PM Re: Soccer as a Vehicle for Learning Life Lessons [Re: socrnewbie]
Relegators Offline
journeyman

Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 61
I think there is way too much importance placed upon having to be "genetically gifted" in order to be succesful in soccer. Until you reach the very highest levels of the sport there is always a place for the player who is willing to train harder and longer than his/her peers consistently over a long period of time.

A recent article:

"It's too early to know whether Davies will be able to return to full playing strength, and if so, exactly how long that might take. But if his history is any indication, Davies' recovery will not be lacking in effort. His father, Charles Kofi Davies, an immigrant from Gambia, was Charlie's soccer coach from age 6 to 15. The elder Davies drilled a yeoman's work ethic into his son."

"I remember when I was 7 years old," Charlie recalled recently, "I was dribbling from 4:00 in the afternoon until about 8:00 doing the same exact drill for four hours and crying in between doing the drills, and him just saying, 'Keep doing it until you get it right.' Finally, it got to be 8:30 and it was pitch-black, and I finally was doing it right. And we were able to go home. He took me to Taco Bell. That was his thing when I was a kid. If you score today and do well, I'll take you to Taco Bell afterward."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/grant_wahl/10/14/charlie.davies/#ixzz0U2YuVePf
Get a free NFL Team Jacket and Tee with SI Subscription


I can't recall meeting anyone who remained "fat & slow" after working out with a ball for 3-4 hrs everyday for a long-period of time. The only genetic gift that matters in soccer is the willingness to do the work everyday that is required to sharpen your skills. Either that or we should all start eating at taco bell.

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#60538 - 10/15/09 04:36 PM Re: Soccer as a Vehicle for Learning Life Lessons [Re: Relegators]
aclifton Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/30/08
Posts: 330
Loc: Kansas City

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#60544 - 10/15/09 04:57 PM Re: Soccer as a Vehicle for Learning Life Lessons [Re: herewegoagain]
herewegoagain Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 239
Originally Posted By: herewegoagain
There has been a recent major shift by several clubs in the past couple of years; you see Happy Feet and other Academies for 4 and 5 year olds springing up for a reason. Not only does this make extra revenue for the clubs; but it is part of a selection process to not only steer more players their way, but to put better teams together at an earlier age. That is how the Legends Academy worked for years. Groups of kids (even from other clubs) would sign up for the Academy to learn moves and the best players would get recruited for the top teams. Not as many players form other clubs have signed up for the Academy in recent years because many of the coaches have changed and are teaching moves. (Indirectly, Andy may have actually had something to do with that). So I think we can give some credit to Andy. Remember, too much of anything is not necessarily the best path. Most coaches worth their salt do 1 v 1s and 2 v 2s, but they also teach the other aspects of the game.


Here is what Andy avoided to talk about on this form and then a few posts later he writes "
This ugly abuse of our most precious resource, (our children), can be called “Geneticism”

What do you think he is doing with the above process...looking for the best athletes...I would call that "Geneticism"

I see all these posts about what is best for the kids, ad nauseum. If you really want to be fair to the kids and the parents, tell them the truth...little Johnny probably won't be a great soccer player, but I know a coach that is really good with kids and coaches for free or I'll put a rec team together for him and coach it for free.

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#60548 - 10/15/09 05:17 PM Re: Soccer as a Vehicle for Learning Life Lessons [Re: herewegoagain]
paul12 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/10/09
Posts: 2810
Loc: Northern Virginia
herewego - exactly the point I made the first time I saw this tangent come up.

The bottom line is the best players are more likely to be offered the best opportunities. What's the alternative? There just aren't enough top-level coaches for every youth player, and if there were, we'd still find ways to perceive some coaches as better than others. Then this cycle of whining starts all over again about why can't that average player have one of those best coaches?

Absolutely there will always be kids who come into their athletic own after someone dismissed them as something less than a first teamer, etc.

But to keep that kid on the first team because he MIGHT grow into something else means to not allow another kid on the team who ALREADY has first-team abilities. Are these legends guys advocating reverse discrimination against today's stronger players?

Now if I was cynical, I'd think that what Andy is really saying with all this genetic crap is "our club has all great coaches, because they all follow our great 'philosophy' (which really isn't a philosophy), and even your average players deserve the right to pay us for our programs." But even in legends, they're going to be stratified into strongest, next strongest, recreational, etc.

In response to Charlie Davies' youth experience, that worked for him. I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb in saying that he's the exception with that. Most seven-year-old youth players would quit, if subjected to four and a half hours of tearful practices on a single skill, with a dad hovering over him saying "you'll do it until you do it right." They just would - no question about it.

Maybe it wasn't those nightmare training sessions that made him the player he is. Instead, maybe whatever innate character it was in young Charlie that allowed him to survive those days also enabled him to reach the heights he has.

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#60551 - 10/15/09 07:04 PM Re: Soccer as a Vehicle for Learning Life Lessons [Re: paul12]
herewegoagain Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 239
Paul12,
Do you think it's "genetics" that causes someone to write such long winded posts that contradict themselves? or do you think he is trying to throw things out there so that he gets "free" advice for his next book?

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#60557 - 10/15/09 08:45 PM Re: Soccer as a Vehicle for Learning Life Lessons [Re: herewegoagain]
AndyBarney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 1684
Herewegoagain

Your following statements are somewhat off the mark:

Quote:
There has been a recent major shift by several clubs in the past couple of years; you see Happy Feet and other Academies for 4 and 5 year olds springing up for a reason. Not only does this make extra revenue for the clubs; but it is part of a selection process to not only steer more players their way, but to put better teams together at an earlier age. That is how the Legends Academy worked for years. Groups of kids (even from other clubs) would sign up for the Academy to learn moves and the best players would get recruited for the top teams. Not as many players form other clubs have signed up for the Academy in recent years because many of the coaches have changed and are teaching moves. (Indirectly, Andy may have actually had something to do with that). So I think we can give some credit to Andy. Remember, too much of anything is not necessarily the best path. Most coaches worth their salt do 1 v 1s and 2 v 2s, but they also teach the other aspects of the game. Here is what Andy avoided to talk about on this form and then a few posts later he writes "
This ugly abuse of our most precious resource, (our children), can be called “Geneticism”

What do you think he is doing with the above process...looking for the best athletes...I would call that "Geneticism"

I see all these posts about what is best for the kids, ad nauseum. If you really want to be fair to the kids and the parents, tell them the truth...little Johnny probably won't be a great soccer player, but I know a coach that is really good with kids and coaches for free or I'll put a rec team together for him and coach it for free.


Herewegoagain

Had you referenced the early years of the Legends club you would have been right. The objective for the first 12 teams in the club was elitist.

However, when we started the academy we had no intent to build teams from the program. Our intent was to offer deceptive dribbling and finishing training to give children skills and confdence other programs around town weren't providing. After experiencing a few weeks of our coaching, parents and kids of all genetic abilities begged us to form teams so that they could get the full benefit of our unique club philosophy.

It was only then that we began to realize we had an obligation to offer children of all genetic talents the ability to realize their potential and dreams.

We have since structured our whole program to offer the very best learning opportunity to children of all genetic capabilities. Our original misguided geneticism has been replaced by a system that maximizes the potential of every child without discriminating against those less fortunate.

I hope this clarifies your misconceptions and incorrect assumptions that our current program contradicts our purist philosophy.

smile Andy


Edited by AndyBarney (10/15/09 08:47 PM)

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