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#84823 - 02/23/12 12:54 PM Re: 2012 Kansas High School Girl's Soccer Season [Re: Proff]
Proff Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/13/11
Posts: 285
Yeah newbie - I guess I just get tired of the double standards for the girls. At the highest levels, it isn't too bad - but studies have shown that referees (yep!) call lighter fouls on girls than on boys, that coaches are less demanding of female players across all ages, that school coaches in particular expect female players to adhere to different standards of "ettiquette" than the guys, etc.

The great thing about sports for girls, in general and IMHO - is that they get to just go out and be themselves. They don't have to worry so much about how they look, they can be confident and commanding and not have boys or teachers giving them a hard time about it, and they earn team respect with substance, not sex appeal - in short - they don't have to act like soceity says "girls" should, they can just act like people.

So things like this shirt changing rule really make me cringe. You are right though, it's a raw nerve. I treat my daughter with respect, the same way I would want to be treated. If someone said I had to do this crazy shirt thing while changing to referee on the sideline (but the guys didn't), I would have to have a serious heart to heart with them about why - and then I would still probably go work somewhere else.

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#84829 - 02/23/12 03:38 PM Re: 2012 Kansas High School Girl's Soccer Season [Re: Proff]
freekick Offline
addict

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 418
Sorry Proff, but soccer leagues are still a business, and as such, you have to take into account customer perception. You might feel it is acceptable for a female to wear just a sport bra. But what if a few "old school" parents (or grandparents?) feel it is inappropriate for a female to start undressing, down to their undergarments, in front of their innocent little child?

Now you're the referee administrator (or league official) and must decide who's moral position is correct. Do they ignore the customer or establish a more restrictive changing policy? Then what happens when a female decides to push "the norm" further and changes with a provocative bra - or nothing underneath? Hey, the guys strip to the skin, why can't the girls??

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately!) there's still lots of grey in society and no right/wrong answer. That's why you get different policies. And as a ref/player then have to decide whether you'll work (or play) within these policies, go elsewhere, or opt not to participate.

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#84835 - 02/23/12 07:03 PM Re: 2012 Kansas High School Girl's Soccer Season [Re: Proff]
fanof2 Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 43
Proff-I am not for double standards for girls at all but not sure promoting modesty is all that bad. My girls usually wear a tank top so swapping out is effortless. Frankly, I wish a few more parents promoted modesty. We were at a tourney where a whole team of girls sat around in their sports bras between games. I found that inappropriate. I can see a quick switcheroo but 2-3 hrs sitting around in your bra is a bit excessive.

Honestly, I think the iPod rule is worse. You should be able to listen to your music and get focused on the task at hand. I am sure the coach is more concerned about the distraction of texting and fb but that seems unnecessary.

Oh well, if those are the rules handed down by the coach then they'll be followed.

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#84851 - 02/24/12 10:10 AM Re: 2012 Kansas High School Girl's Soccer Season [Re: fanof2]
jjflash Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/10/09
Posts: 1076
Nope...no rule #3 mentioned at our meeting last night. Went over the new KSHSAA rule for concussions, but no rule #3.
fanof2 and freekick, you're right...alittle modesty with this issue of the sports bra thing is good, but at least a sports bra is better than some of the bikini tops you'll see girls wearing at public pools and whatnot in the summer. I guess if it was called a sports top instead of a bra, maybe it wouldn't be as much of an issue. Blame it all on Brandi Chastain...she started all of this!

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#84858 - 02/24/12 11:31 AM Re: 2012 Kansas High School Girl's Soccer Season [Re: jjflash]
Keep It Fun Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/25/05
Posts: 2404
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Rules are made to be broken.

The first rule makes perfect sense to me. In mental preparation for a game, getting everyone in the same mindset is key. Anyone tried to have a conversation with your kid where you have to repeat everything you say after they've removed at least one of the headphones? I can imagine it would get pretty old pretty quick having to preface everything with, "okay, everyone take your headphones out" only to see players then taking out their headphones, and asking the person next to them what had been said.
Most teams make up a warm up CD that probably doesn't include anything that would offend anyone's grandmother. If they want music, then they can listen to that. Then it's a shared team experience.
Texting, anyone had the urge to hurl their kid's phone out the car window? How about texting back and forth between the front, and back seat? Perhaps the coach wants the players to interact on a human level prior to a match.
I'm sure, in case of emergency, the coach would allow the phone rule to be bent.

Doesn't the school already have a dress code that requires the finger length skirts/shorts? The same rule applies to the boys as well. School event, school decorum.

The sports bra issue could fall into the same category, not school attire. That being the case, the boys should not be allowed to go shirtless. If a guy yanks his shirt off, then the girls are going to notice in a similar way as the boys.
Certainly there's a double standard here. Not just between genders, but in what is acceptable attire. Most sports bras are less revealing than a typical bathing suit. What does the swim team wear? One piece suits most likely, but for all practical purposes, they're one thin stretchy layer from naked.
All it would take for me to implement such a rule would be one player, as they were changing, turning and flexing to spectators, or something else to attract attention to themselves.
At least they don't have to dress like the Iranian women's team.

Rules are made when someone has abused their rights.

Or maybe, just maybe, the coach wants to see his players develop into respectable young ladies instead of a bunch of mean A-- B-----s that know how to kick balls.

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#84859 - 02/24/12 01:34 PM Re: 2012 Kansas High School Girl's Soccer Season [Re: Keep It Fun]
bleddry Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 185
Yeah I try and teach my daughter all the time that what is going to make her respectable is not showing her stomach to anyone..by the way anyone got any floor length dresses I can give her to wear to school, I think she is tired of the ones she has. This discussion just seems stupid to me as a parent. I look at my daughter as an athlete. Always has been , always will be. She is proud of the way she looks and I have raised her to be proud of the way she looks, big thighs and all.(Anyone who has ever heard the scream "Ugh...so tight in the thighs, so loose in the waist", will know what I'm talking about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiyPJnsoe9c ) She knew what building all the muscle up would make her look like and guess what, maybe she is a little proud of the fact that she has a six pack.

I think here that the person that might be offended by seeing my daughter, in her sports bra, changing her shirt on the sidelines before a game, might need to ask themselves, "Why is that offensive to me?" I mean are we still living in a day and age where we are asking our daughters to be ashamed of what they look like? Especially at an age where they may feel awkward about their body's in the first place.Yeah I guess the right thing to do is make them even more self conscious about how they look by telling them it is against the rules to change their shirts on the sidelines because some one may get offended. I mean really , who is going to get offended by looking at the back of some kids sports bra when they change. Is it all the muscles they are offended by?

Modesty? Lets examine that. Modesty is defined as -
1. The state or quality of being modest.
2. Reserve or propriety in speech, dress, or behavior.
3. Lack of pretentiousness; simplicity.

So what is modest?

1. Having or showing a moderate estimation of one's own talents, abilities, and value. - Ok I don't think my daughter switching shirts is a showing of her talents, abilities, or value.
2. Having or proceeding from a disinclination to call attention to oneself; retiring or diffident. - Once again switching shirts is not an act to call attention to herself, she is simply getting ready to play a game.
3. Observing conventional proprieties in speech, behavior, or dress. - Ok this might apply, but as has been pointed out, this is done by most of the players on the team any way so the act itself would fall inline with what is considered by her peers as conventional dress for the occasion.
4. Free from showiness or ostentation; unpretentious - Once again is someone really trying to argue that by switching shirts she is trying to bring attention to herself?


Bottom line - stupid rule created to protect people living in the 1950's. She's not just a girl, she is an athlete, stop treating her like just a girl and start treating her like an athlete. So what she has a sports bra on ..who cares, guess what she has b***s, who cares. Do you think she does not know that people will see her sports bra when she takes off her shirt. Why should we make them feel like they should be embarrassed or ashamed of what the look like in a sports bra anyways. Does this not harm their self image in some way by making them believe that they should be ashamed or embarrassed. Heck I have worked very hard a parent to do just the opposite with her as she has grown up and reminded her that she has an athletes body and should be proud of it. I am more interested in if she can dribble around the defender she is squaring up against, I don't much care if she is going to show somebody her sports bra or not for 50 seconds while she changes shirts. I mean honestly the swimsuits she wears are 100 times more revealing then any sports bra she ever chooses to put on. Its time for us as a group to grow up and move forward.


Edited by bleddry (02/24/12 03:36 PM)

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#84860 - 02/24/12 01:37 PM Re: 2012 Kansas High School Girl's Soccer Season [Re: Keep It Fun]
not that crazy Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 35
From my understanding...the coach is actually a brand new FEMALE coach. She has coached club soccer, but has never been a high school girls coach before.

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#84861 - 02/24/12 03:06 PM Re: 2012 Kansas High School Girl's Soccer Season [Re: not that crazy]
Proff Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/13/11
Posts: 285
Me too bleddry - my kid is an amazon. If she didn't have soccer, her body esteem would be very low. Alot of our soccer girls aren't the petite, super skinny look that is idolized by media (though some are!) and they take alot of flack from peers, teachers, churches, and society in general for not looking "the way they should". That's alot of negativity, and that could run my daughter down.

Instead - she looks at those quads and gluts that take a size 9 pair of jeans and says - "Yeah, that's what it takes to be faster than 95% of the girls out there, and so I love it."

I'm proud that she has hopes and dreams that are about character and effort, rather than about pleasing others and looking pretty in order to manipulate her way through the world. Watching how her beleifs have been shaped by soccer...I think she will be fit through her entire life, less likely to suffer from depression, less likely to abuse a substance or be in an abusive relationship...etc.

She wouldn't have any problem changing shirts on the sideline - because she sees her body as a reflection of her HARD WORK, and not just as some object of desire or shame. She owns her body, it doesn't own her ;-)

This policy says "Hey - there are still alot of people out there who think you are a sex object first, and an athlete second." AND we care more about what they think...than what you think.

Bleddry is right - that's a problem with the spectator, not with the girls. If you let that stand - then what is to stop them from cutting female players altogether? After all - young ladies should not be acting so aggresively, it is unbecoming.

Freekick - HS soccer is not a business, but even if it was, there is no liability concern here. For example - you don't see this kind of nonsense on club teams, or at least I never have. Girls very routinely change shirts on the sideline over their sports bras. If someone is offended, they are free to look the other way, or not to come to the game, or to have their own daughter do the Houdini shirt change (or wear a tank as one poster suggested). They are free to dictate to their own daughter whatever moral code they like - but they shouldn't get to dictate to mine.

The youth game is for the players anyway, and the spectators should feel darn lucky to have the privelege of setting up their chairs.

LOL, if you had to wait for everyone to agree something was NOT offensive before you could make it policy then we'd still have segregated schools, and laws to keep women from owning property or voting. Many HS athletes wear less clothes and for the entire sporting event...Holy cow - look at HS gymnasts and what they wear, or the tiny shorts and tanks the cross country team wears, or the male swimmers!

Rule #3 is not a huge deal, don't get me wrong - but it is an unfair exception and one that bears challenging. That's a lesson for our daughters as well.


Edited by Proff (02/24/12 03:18 PM)

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#84862 - 02/24/12 04:45 PM Re: 2012 Kansas High School Girl's Soccer Season [Re: Proff]
TODDMAN Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/21/11
Posts: 50
Loc: Derby
The JV Titan Classic teams are posted They start March 16th.
Wichita-East, Wichita-Heights, Wichita-North, Derby, Maize South,
Valley Center, Hutchinson
I have the bracket posted at http://www.sportz.toddman.org/

I'll post the Varsity Brackets when they come out. The following schools are: Wichita-East, Wichita-Heights, Wichita-Kapaun Mt. Carmel, Wichita-Northwest, Wichita-Southeast, Derby, Dodge City,
Winfield, Maize, Emporia, Great Bend, Hutchinson, Liberal, Salina Central, Haysville-Campus

Will see how well JJ's girls do smile
_________________________
Later, TODDMAN
www.toddman.org

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#84879 - 02/25/12 02:30 PM Re: 2012 Kansas High School Girl's Soccer Season [Re: TODDMAN]
pelecosmos1 Online   content
old hand

Registered: 01/21/12
Posts: 776
Toddman

JJ already put the jinx on Maize again.

My prediction. Maize will win the Titan Classic and make it to State again. Girls soccer in Wichita and Western part of state is very weak so Maize will win by default.

The test will be when Maize plays vs. the KC area teams.
We shall see but my prediction is KC area team will win state.

Allot could change though if some of the top players from KC area elect to play club not high school.




Edited by pelecosmos1 (02/25/12 02:32 PM)

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